personal blog about, well, various stuff…
Samsung C7705 plasma black level at 50Hz vs. 60Hz vs. Cinema Smooth
I’ve been really satisfied with the Samsung PS63C7705. Owned it now for over 2 weeks and I was really impressed by the picture quality. And as many of you know I measured the black level low (at 0.02 to 0.03 cdm2) and some other reviewers measured it higher. Some of the explanation is probably my equipment being a little unprecise (the only two low level “luminance” meters I have are a Spyder and a i1 D2).
But yesterday I was watching some tv shows and I discovered the black level was brighter than normal with a blue LCD like tone. At first I thought it was the recording/encoding (some questionable mkv’s), so I didn’t really think more about until today where I still couldn’t believe how bad it was (I could easily see it with the lights on in the room). I was certain that the black level was a lot better when I calibrated it and I remembered the black at 0IRE having a red tone, not a blue tone. So something was wrong.
I updated the Samsung to firmware 1016 just before posting my updated settings a few days ago (it was firmware 1013 before), so I thought that might have been the reason.
My setup consists of an Onkyo TX-NR808 receiver, a Mac Mini running Plex/eyeTV and a Samsung 6900 3D bluray player (and some other non relevant-equipment). Everything is run through my receiver so I thought that might be the problem also (it just had a firmware update too). But then I started my PS3 and wanted to do some testing. I instantly noticed that the PS3 seemed to have a darker black.
When I loaded up the calibration disk (I just took the first one I had around which was an old ColourHCFR DVD) I could see the screen changing the black level to something a lot brighter. Strange. I then entered the TV menu, but no matter what I tried to adjust I couldn’t get the black level lower). So what was the difference between the two signals (PS3 displaying it’s menu and PS3 showing a DVD)? The resolution is the same – upconverted to 1080p. But then I noticed the difference. The PS3 menu is shown at 60Hz – The DVD is shown at 50Hz.
Now I spent one hour testing this with all kinds of calibration disks and settings. Using both my Mac Mini, Samsung BD player and the PS3 – both connected directly to the screen and run through the Onkyo. When the signal is 50Hz the black level is bad/bright. When it’s 60Hz it’s good/dark. There is no way for the 50Hz black to be adjusted on the TV down to the level of the 60Hz black. The white level doesn’t change and the black level at 60Hz stays solid so it’s not some power save feature that turns on when the screen is dark at 60Hz.
Conclusion:
- 50Hz makes the screen have a black level with a blue tone with a luminance level of about 0.06cd/m2 (LCD like).
- 60Hz makes the screen have a black level with a red tone with a luminance level of about 0.02-0.03cd/m2 (noticeably darker)
Now – I need others to test this just to make sure it’s not just my screen that exhibits this.
Try loading up my settings posted here (as these should make the black level as dark as possible).
If you have a HTPC or Mac connected it’s quite easy to switch between 50Hz and 60Hz and watch the black level (just turn the desktop colour to black). And please do this in a completely dark room.
If you have a PS3 (or BD player capable of outputting at the right Hz like the Samsung) try loading the ColourHCFR calibration DVD (it’s mastered in 50Hz) and check the 0/10IRE pattern. Afterwards try loading the AVCHD calibration disk (which is 60Hz) and check the 0/10IRE pattern. I was able to replicate this no matter the video settings of the PS3 (black level, RGB, YCbCr etc.).
The Samsung BD player is a little funny. If you play a disc at 60Hz and eject the disk the menu is still 60Hz. If you play a 50Hz disk it changes the menu system to 50Hz. So you can even see the menu looks a lot better at 60Hz.
And btw – 24Hz is the same black level as 60Hz – only 50Hz being the problem with brighter black levels. When watching TV with the build-in tuner the black level is also “brighter” (as it’s 50Hz PAL in Denmark).
So why does the black level change? The answer is probably best explained in a post about the same problem on Panasonic plasmas on avforums.co.uk – although it might also be a firmware problem.
I just didn’t expect it to make such a visible difference :-/
Update 2010-08-14:
Ok. I’ve just had it confirmed on a danish forum that people are experiencing the same thing.
When the TV is fed with a 25Hz or 50Hz signal the black level is bright.
If the signal is 24Hz, 30Hz or 60Hz the black level remains where they should.
Also – when viewing a 24Hz signal (eg. BD) and you engage Cinema Smooth mode you get the brighter black level also (this should be easy for everybody to test – but make sure you do it in a completely dark room).
The theory is that 24Hz, 30Hz and 60Hz is displayed at 60Hz and 25Hz, 50Hz is displayed at 100Hz (which results in the brighter black level). 24Hz with Cinema Smooth is displayed at 96Hz (with the brighter black level).
One of the users on the danish forum found out that this is actually an “old” problem with many Samsung plasma’s.
PS58B850/ Cinema smooth Black level problem – CNET Samsung Forums
Samsung cinema smooth issue – AVS Forum
You can see the difference here:
Update 2010-08-17:
Just wanted to add that the user fredtoft (at recordere.dk) measured the PS63C7705′s black levels with a Klein K10 (capable of measuring down to 0.0002 cd/m2 and the same meter used by hdtvtest.co.uk and avforums.co.uk in some of their reviews). He is an ISF and a THX certified calibrator so I guess his measurements are to be taken seriously.
You can see the posts here (in danish), but to sum it up:
| With 60Hz or 24Hz input (Cinema Smooth off): | 0.003 cd/m2 | 0.0009 fL |
| With 50Hz or 24Hz input (Cinema Smooth on): | 0.034 cd/m2 | 0.0099 fL |
These readings are a lot more precise than what I can do with the colourimeters I have (and also a lot lower).
The C7705 is measuring lower than the Panasonic VT20/VT25 and almost at Kuro levels. Some speculation suggests that the black levels are better on the 63″ than on the 50″, but we’ll see once flatpanelshd.com has tested their PS50C7705.
It has also been confirmed that the difference in black levels existed in firmwares before 1016 (which i’m currently running). So avoid running 50Hz or using Cinema Smooth if you want good black levels. However – 0.034 cd/m2 is still better than most LCD’s and plasma’s currently available.
| Print article | This entry was posted by Dennis Thomsen on 2010/08/12 at 22:04, and is filed under Audio/Video. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback from your own site. |
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about 1 year ago
That explains why the Cinema Smooth function makes the image brighter too. Instead of running at 24 hz it runs at 3 or 4 times that (can’t remember)
about 1 year ago
Thanks for the info.
96Hz makes it rise too apparently (cinema smooth). Just updated the post.
about 1 year ago
fredtoft used full black or ansi pattern?
about 1 year ago
I’m sorry to say, but PSC7000 shuts its panel off when theres no image displayed. So that will explain these great black levels. I don’t know if it shuts down when cinema smooth is engaged, though.
Try to measure black level when theres only one or few pixels lit on the screen (on the corner so it won’t affect the measurement). Then it will show black level of 0,03-0,05 cdm/2.
about 1 year ago
The C7705 doesn’t shut off it’s panel when no image is displayed.
You can clearly see that it’s on – and when using an 10IRE or higher pattern the blacks outside the window are exactly the same as when showing 0IRE.
Only when switching between inputs the panels powers down for 0.5 second (i think that happens because the refresh rate changes).
Even when turning on the eco-settings and dynamic contrast the panel doesn’t power down (atleast I haven’t been able to make it do that).
The american version might be different in this way. I also know that some other european samsungs have this undefeatable panel off thing, but the C7705 doesn’t.
You can also see in the picture i took that the panel is on (in both 60Hz and 50Hz mode). In 60Hz mode it is very dark/black.
about 1 year ago
Do you know if this black level bug also affects the C6505 and C675 models?
about 1 year ago
It affected last years models too so I have a hunch that most Samsungs have this “problem”.
It’s easy to test if you know somebody who as the models.
about 1 year ago
Dennis,
will the problem be solved in firmware higher than 1016.0?
BR
about 1 year ago
That only Samsung can answer, but I think it might be a hardware related problem (the higher refresh rate, the higher the black level). It seems Panasonic or LG has omewhat same problem (although the other way around) as you can see here http://www.avforums.com/forums/plasma-tvs/1257307-help-panasonic-plasma-mll-50hz-vs-60hz-vs-24p.html
about 1 year ago
Just found out that when watching a 60Hz signal and turning on and off 3D. The screen then shows the elevated black level when fed a 60Hz signal also. Turning the power off and on again is the screen is the only way to get the normal 60Hz black level back.
This could perhaps mean that it’s a software issue.
about 1 year ago
Hi, Dennis. Nice job you did here. Have you tested the new firmware yet? If so, any difference?
Regards.
Manuel.
about 1 year ago
Haven’t tested the new firmware yet, but will try this weekend. However according to the changelog available from Samsung I don’t think that much has changed.
about 1 year ago
I am really glad to say that there are indeed major changes even if not listed. I’ve just noticed that the infamous line bleeding has totally disapeared!
Vey good news guys!
about 1 year ago
Just updated. Sorry, but there are no changes in line bleeding or the 50/60/24Hz black level issue in the new firmware (2001.2). The line bleeding issue is definitely hardware related, so can’t see any software update changing it.
Also – no need for new settings for the new firmware – everything picture quailty wise is the same as 1016 (and 1013).
about 1 year ago
I just double checked. The thing is that in my TV the line bleeding on a black screen seems to have disappear but not on a white screen (this page does indeed line bleed). I might have gunjumped as well. Perhaps there was a change in the source (I used to see the line bleed on a specific screen for non accesible Digital + channels here in Spain). Thanx anyway.
about 1 year ago
Hi Dennis
Great blog!!
I sent Samsung a email about the Black level and this is their reply
“Regarding the issue that you have with your television,
We assure you that we do not have any reports regarding this issue, but
if you want to downgrade the firmware that you have on your TV, we can
arrange for that”
When my TV was delivered back in July, it had firmware version 1013 installed. The black levels with cinema smooth enabled was great.
I think 1014 was ok, but with 1015,1016 and 2001.2 I also noticed the TV could not produce the same black level as 1013.
I’m going to let samsung downgrade my firmware to 1013 sometime next week and report back.
about 1 year ago
Hi Stephen.
- if FW 1013 is OK after downgrade, Samsung has to fix what seems to be “our” problem!
Hope you then will inform the “right” persons at Samsung – i.e. if 1013 shows black well.
BR
about 1 year ago
New Samsung firmware:
http://www.samsung.com/ch/support/detail/supportPrdDetail.do?menu=SP01&prd_mdl_cd=PS63C7780YSXZG&prd_mdl_name=PS63C7780YS&prd_ia_sub_class_cd=P
about 1 year ago
For most people there should be no need to update (2002.0)- only a few minor changes…
Changelog:
. OSD wrapping of specific languages issue on wireless pop-up window
. To remove the message of ”USB Overload”
. [MHEG] memory leak at iFrame channel (only UK)
. Latvian / Lithuanian OSD error when insert wireless dongle.
about 1 year ago
Hi
Unfortunately the samsung engineer said he could not downgrade the firmware back to 1013, because it could cause problems, but he said he will report the black level issue back to samsung.
At the moment guys the only way to make sure samsung acknowledges this issue is for everyone to email samsung about the black level issue. or it will just get swept under the carpet!
about 1 year ago
Hi Dennis
Can I please use your cinema smooth on/off sample on Av forums?
Thanks
about 1 year ago
Sure. No problem.
about 1 year ago
If you turn of cinema smooth with bl ray playback at 24fps doesn’t the TV then use 60hz to playback br disc hence 3:2 pulldown?
You will get judder with panning shots?
about 1 year ago
Cinema Smooth is 3 or 4 times 24 (can never remember). Turning it off just makes the TV run at 24 hz – not 60
about 1 year ago
Cinema Smooth is 4:4 pull down so runs at 96hhz for 24p. Don’t agree it does it at 24hz. I have it confirmed it does it at 60hz hence 3:2 pull down and jerkiness with slow pans.
about 1 year ago
I just installed new firmware 2004. it seems that 50 hz black level a little bit improved. Is there any body who test this firmware.
about 1 year ago
I’ll try testing and measuring it next week, but I do doubt it
about 1 year ago
Hi Dennis,
I just check it with some of the old movies. There must be an improvement. Black level not as good as 60 hz or 24 hz but better than old firmwares one.
I had kuro 6090. after that black level was disappointment. But now it very watchable at very low light level.
about 1 year ago
I live in Australia we also have the same set as you guys but
our PS 63 c7000 is equivalent to US 8000 series and your 7780.
I uploaded and installed the FW on the Site above. I did it for FW 2002 as well.
Can agree with Ayan the blacks on 50hz are a lot better.
Also clarity appears to have improved but this goes hand in hand with the improved MLL.
Also now you can set the bluray player to 1080i so that it sends a 1080i/50 signal to the TV which will give better blacks and improved motion as turning CS off results in a 1080p/60 sent to set and 3:2 pulldown resulting in jerky motion.
about 1 year ago
DEnnis and the rest. I have noticed on my reference BR discs
That mll has decreased for 96hz Cinema Smooth.
Not as deep as 60hz but at least a shade lighter to my eyes. also Lip Sync issues are not there as they were with fw 2002.
Could this be the silver bullet?